Bailter Space

Interview by Tim Bugbee
Popwatch magazine #5 (1994)

I had the opportunity to interview the trio (which in 1987 mutated into Bailter Space) before their show this summer. After driving from Philly via NYC during Friday rush hour traffic, and being late for soundcheck, they were understandably a bit reticent about the interview, but I managed to wrestle out some info of which I hope one can make sense.

PW: How hard was it to release that first single (Future Shock, 1980)? You were really the only band that I've heard that was doing that kind of stuff. Was there any support?
John: It was easy to get it out 'cause we did it ourselves. Drove it around ourselves to the different record shops, literally. There was no deal with a record company or any other company. We just paid to get them made at the record plant, Polygram actually, and we had product and sold it as we could.

PW: Did you do your first record like that as well, or did Flying Nun enter the picture at that time?
J: Uh, that was the first record.

PW: Not the single, the LP.
Alister: Yeah, the first record we did the same way, except that we went to Flying Nun and cut them a deal. We said that they could release the record for us. At that stage we had our own label, the Gordons label, and later on when they re-released it they put a Flying Nun label on it, but it wasn't a Flying Nun record and it was meant to have come out with Gordons label at that stage as well.
J: We actually manufactured the record. We had it in our hands before Roger (Shepard, head of Flying Nun) entered the picture. It was a finished thing.

PW: What was the story behind Volume 2. I've heard about you breaking copies in Writhe, the studio you recorded it in. Weren't you happy with it?
J: No, we never broke any of them. Personally, I just wanted that record off the market because it reminded me of a bad era of my life. I'd had my guitars stolen; the album could have been better but it was okay. I didn't actually want to do that recording, but because the recording time was already booked we were going to have to pay for it anyway, so there was no way out of it. So we only made enough of them to cover the costs. They're not available anywhere.

PW: Any plans to reissue it?
J: No.

PW: What caused the Gordons to stop?
J: I guess what caused the second Gordons to stop was the guitars being stolen. I just stopped playing music for a few years. As far as the first Gordons, I dunno, we just stopped.

PW: When you formed Bailter Space, you replaced Brent with Hamish (Kilgour)?
A: No, it was just a little musical project that started with Hamish.
J: No, we didn't replace Brent at all.

PW: He was just available?
J: I wasn't in the band when it started either.
A: Me and Hamish used to just muck around in his apartment; then we did a few gigs and stuff like that and made Nelsh and wanted to take it further. And that's when we needed to ask John if he wanted to come in, because we couldn't find anyone we liked playing with. So when John came along and became a part of Bailter Space, it felt pretty good and we went and made Tanker, and at that stage Hamish...when we were playing in America on our first time over here, Hamish didn't make it back to New Zealand. We waited for awhile, but he just didn't want to go back.

PW: Is that why you covered "In Love With These Times" (a Clean song), because he was in the band? Was that his doing?
A: Yeah, it was just a song that was on our first record.

PW: Why did you decide to rework "Our Aim" off that record for the new EP?
A: I don't know, we were just playing it really different, it sort of became a different song, so it just seemed like a good idea to re-record it. Why not? It was an interesting thing to do. They are two different versions of something that's entitled the same. They're similar, but then they're not.

PW: How did you guys come about picking "Grader Spader" for the Flying Nun compilation? That was really the first time I heard your band, and upon hearing Tanker it was pretty dissimilar to some of the material off Tanker, so I kind of got a skewed picture of the band.
A: Yeah, "Grader Spader" is off Tanker.

PW: Right, but it was on the In Love With These Times compilation.
A: I think we knew we liked the song at the time, as the one to put on the compilation. We released a 12" by itself with two other songs on the flip.

PW: Yeah, with the instrumental call "nbs," is that like an a-side to nelshbailterspace, was it left over from that?
A: Yeah, it was a bit of the way we used to practice, that kind of noise. What else do you want to know...about Matador?

PW: Yeah, how'd that start up? Actually I was kind of curious about the delay between Thermos and the new one. It seemed to be about a year and a half.
A: It was the contractual side of things, us touring around the world, and some of the things we had to clear up...our move over from New Zealand. That was the last thing we did together in New Zealand, we made Robot World. So we had to schedule that for then, because it took quite a long time to work out contract things with Flying Nun, Matador, and Clawfist. It has been quite a bit complicated.

PW: How did the UK tour go? Had you been there before?
A: Yeah, it was the second time we've been there.

PW: The two singles did pretty well for you?
J: It was Single of the Week in Melody Maker. That was really good going, because we hadn't expected anything like that to happen.

PW: Were you located in Germany for awhile, or just in New Zealand?
A: No, we've lived in Germany, England, and now the USA.

PW: Which country do you like the best, in regard to the best "situation"?
J: Well, I'm very fond of living here, actually. It's really great to have a home again.
A: It was about a year where we were moving a lot and nothing was for very long, just three months maximum.

PW: Did that put pressure on keeping the band together?
A: That was our initial idea, was to stay together. No it didn't really, it was a good time.

PW: How's the situation with Matador?
J: Better, they're really cool, been great. One of the only record companies in the world I would consider signing with. Very cool.

PW: Did you play any live shows with other Matador acts, besides JPSE?
Brent: The Matador showcase at the (New Music)Seminar with Moonshake, Liz Phair, Yo La Tengo, and Pavement.
A: Moonshake, they were quite good live.

PW: What are you listening to lately?
J: The most enjoyable music or sound was just coming from the motorway. It was really quite great, really singing (laughter).

PW: Some of your songs seems to have an obsession with some things mechanical. Would you say that's a fair statement?
J: Choochoochoochoochoochoochoo.
A: Sometimes, yeah. It's not that we're totally obsessed by that at all, but there is definitely a machinery element in our song-making sometimes.
J: I suppose it's always connected to the words in one way or another.
A: It has, hasn't it, even in the Gordons.
J: Which is not surprising since we're humans living in a world of breaking down machines, it's a good thing to sing about so...it bears a certain relevance.
A: Yeah it does.

PW: What kind of stuff do you sample? I notice that on the last record you guys did have samples credited for some of the instrumentation used, but I didn't see any of that on Tanker or Thermos. Is that a relatively new thing?
A: Yeah, I guess we started using it...
B: It was on Thermos actually.
A: Brent plays it at the same time as he plays his drums.
B: It's mainly guitar sounds that were sort of altered.

PW: So it's not like a classic sample like rap music when it's stuff that you just...
A: No, we don't use other people's shit.
J: That's cheating! It's okay for other people to do that, but we couldn't excuse ourselves for doing it.
A: Now the sounds that are written for the piece of music that, you know, either blends in or make a key part of the tune. The moment they become a sample they're their own thing, it's like what you play into the sample that you don't need to hear back. It's altered, the sample puts its own character on the sound as well.

PW: Do you think you get a fuller sound from samples?
A: Yeah, I like it.
B: There are just certain songs that we write that, I don't know, sometimes we have a sound in mind that Alastir might think some guitar part would really suit on top of what we've already played, and then other times we've got the sound and we'll write a song to go with the sound.
J: We don't need it, there are times when it's broken down on our European tour; it broke down about four or five consecutive gigs and we still did a quite healthy set of songs. The problem is the set of songs will change a little. There are a couple of songs we wanted to play that we couldn't, but it's not to say we rely on it at all, we minimally use it to pad what's already there.

PW: Did you pick up the idea for sampling when you were working with some of the Skeptics stuff? Or was that not related?
J: Not related at all really. The same kind of guitar, but the difference is using samples of our own music. They were using samples, but in a totally different manner.
A: They were, yeah.
J: They're coming from a different place. Their songwriting process is totally different from where Bailter Space is.

PW: Do you guys do a collaboration or does somebody come up with the main melody and then you just work in your parts to it?
A: We use reflection a lot so things bounce and...
J: Hopefully we start with the melody and then will work around it, but we don't have a set format for writing songs.
B: Sometimes we just set up the practice. We just start playing something and then it will turn into something. We'll make a song.

PW: Of a lot of the NZ Flying Nun bands, it seems like you guys would have a lot in common with the Xpressway aesthetic in terms of sound. Any reason you never hooked up with them?
A: I don't think we're really all that similar.
J: I had never heard them until we came over here.

PW: Oh, really?

J: They're not known in New Zealand.
A: The only band I've ever heard on Xpressway is the Dead C and they'd play through cardboard boxes and stuff.
J: They seemed to be hugely successful in America and Europe. They're just really well known, but in New Zealand they don't seem to bother about lifting their profile. The bands don't advertise or they don't even bother to market their records in NZ. Maybe they do now, but honestly we've never heard of them in NZ.

PW: I guess that's probably because they didn't have a lot of domestic product in NZ; it was mostly licensed to small labels in the US, like Siltbreeze and Majora.
A: Excuse me (to the waitress). Do you have Turkish coffee?
J: But, yeah, I'd agree in a sense that perhaps they are more attuned to that area, whereas Flying Nun is inclined to lean towards the era we've done in the past, Xpressway puts more obscure and less commercially viable product out.

PW: Have you seen any NZ bands kind of die on the vine that you think should have got a better shot at getting some kind of recognition?
J: Oh no, I think all NZ bands have been incredibly lucky to get so much recognition.

PW: What's the typical scene in NZ. Is it like Top 40 music and that's about it...?
J: Not really.
A: We have college radio in each city that's twenty-four hours and they're really good; they have different people with different tastes, you know, but I reckon that's really it.
B: As far as bands, I think there's more of a market for the...I guess what you'd call underground music opposed to Top 40 stuff. There's lots of bands that play their own music.

PW: What do you think was the best US show you've done on your tour?
A: I really enjoyed the one we played with Urge Overkill, actually. That was in Columbus, and Philly was good.

PW: What made them stand out? The crowd or the way you guys played? Or was it who you played with?
A: Uh, maybe there seemed to be a bit more energy around with the crowd, but I think altogether all the gigs have been pretty good. I think those gigs we sort of got the sound we wanted. Steve Heay's with us at the moment, and all the rest of the tour we haven't had our engineer, which has been really difficult because it's so integral.

PW: Do you do all the producing yourselves?
A: Yeah.

PW: Did you have a stake in Writhe Studios? Is that your home base?
Brent: That was John and myself and one other. The Skeptics and us sort of combined for ownership.

PW: Have you produced any other bands? Or do you not want to give away your secrets?
J: Well...
B: We've worked the studio for six years so we've done tons of NZ, not really that much Flying Nun, but JPSE, David Kilgour, Terminals.... It was more the sort of underground bands that didn't have deals and stuff in NZ.
A: We got to do some producing.
B: Yeah, give it a little mix of this, turning it up loud and making it sound good.

PW: Have you seen any opening bands on your tour that have really opened your eyes?
J: Not really. I mean, we're usually away when other bands play, putting strings on our guitars or something, so that we generally have tunnel vision, not looking around. When you've got five guitars to put new strings on you just throw down sound check and then you get rushed away from the hotel, slink on your guitar, and just make it in time for the gig.
A: New Radiant Storm King was good.
B: Yeah, they were interesting.
A: Yeah, that's one band that we caught. We had time to kill that day. That was good, but most times on tour either I had to have sleep for an hour because the road and stuff...its so draining and you get hardly any sleep for a long time so, um, I relax. I find it to be draining if I have to sit through a couple of groups that I don't really feel totally in love with, you know. Before I play I'd rather just hear silence.

PW: Yeah, it is tough to sit through some bands sometimes when it seems like the same song is being recycled over and over.
A: Yeah, and I'm too nervous to listen to the other bands.

PW: Do you ever listen to any of your tapes when you are done? Are you self-critics, or do you just move on to the next show?
J: Yeah, we can be very critical.
A: It's a good thing to be self-critical with, I think, a project like this. You know you're working together with each other, it's really, it's incredibly valuable if you can communicate on that level, be objective and critical of your own music. It's just so important, and I really enjoy that part of the way we work together. I find that John really helps me stand away from the songs and look from other perspectives and it's really important, totally important. You can't lose spontanaity when you play.

PW: How long have you been living in New York? Was that a shock moving from Wellington, NZ?
J: It wasn't much of a shock, because we had been there a few times and we came here about a year ago from NZ. For about six weeks, we were living here for the length of that time, and we were living in Europe for quite a long time before we came back here, and that whole period we were sort of living from city to city and...its certainly different.
B: It's more exciting being somewhere all together with the intention of just playing music together.

PW: You've been able to focus a lot better?
A: Yeah.
J: I actually got homesick for the first time last week but I wasn't homesick for New Zealand, I was homesick for New York (all laugh). I'd been away for two weeks and couldn't wait to get back home.
A: Me too, definitely. It's good.
B: There are lots of other different things happening in our lives; there are lots of things that are here too, but music is the main thing.

PW: Do you have a certain amount of records for Matador, or is it a Touch and Go thing?
A: Five. We've already done one. We are just about finished with the second one. I'd say within the next year we'll be out of the contract and looking for a bigger deal (laughter).
J: Yeah, but I don't know if they can release them as fast as we can make them.
A: They don't know what they've got. It will probably take five years.
B: No, I think that's too long.
A: I think most companies only like releasing one a year.
B: I seem to find that...
A: I think two a year is really good if you could.
B: Two would be nice.
A: Yeah.
B: One early and one late in the year.

PW: Two full LP's or like an EP and an LP?
A: At least that, yeah. And if it worked out we could do two LPs. That would be great.

PW: Are they still thinking of reissuing Thermos?
A: Yes, and Tanker, as a double flip thing.

PW: Any unreleased stuff tacked on there, or is it just going to be the straight album versions?
A: I don't know. I think it will be pretty much the straight album versions.

PW: You have a video coming out too?
A: Yeah, we think. We haven't seen it yet.
J: We are going to see it on Saturday.

PW: Off the new record, or one from Robot World?
A: It's for a track from Robot World--"EIP."

PW: That should be an interesting video.
A: Yeah, I think it worked out okay. We just finished making an EP for release in one month, and it has two new tracks that were recorded that are going to be off the upcoming album. Probably different versions, but the same thing, and so they're on the front and then there's a remix of "Robot World," the song, different production.

PW: Is the EP going to be out just on CD or will you press vinyl as well?
A: It's only coming out on CD.

PW: How do you feel about format? Do you really care either way?
A: I get pissed off at the recorded, kind of harsh, sound of CDs sometimes. I mean, some music carries pretty well with that sound, but a lot of the more softer side, or even very sonic music is just so...I don't like that. When you've been listening to a compact disc for a while and you put a record on the record player, wow, it's just so warm sounding and quite real in comparison.
J: That depends on how good the record is, doesn't it?
A: Yeah.

PW: There's that convenient factor of CDs. You don't have to baby them like albums.
J: You don't miss the record popping in the vinyl groove.
A: True.
J: One good thing about CDs is, even though it does lose a certain warmth, it's digitally remastered. It's pretty much the same as the digitally mastered. It should be 100% the same. It's the first time the public is hearing what exactly you mixed. Apparently there is quite a difference between the Robot World CD and the Robot World LP, you know, the vinyl.
B: And on Thermos, too.
A: Apparently the sound is really good on the vinyl.

PW: Does Matador press up an initial amount and just wait until it sells, or will they do a repressing? Will the vinyl be a one shot deal?
B: I really don't know.
A: I think they carry it all along in all the markets really.
B: I like CDs just for their clarity and the portableness of them, rather than lugging a cassette deck.
J: Yeah, that's really good.
A: That's why I like CDs, definitely.

PW: Did you do any other videos for Robot World, aside from "EIP"?
A: No we just did "EIP."

PW: Did Flying Nun give you any budget for doing something for Thermos or Tanker?
A: Um, I've heard of them, but I don't think they gave us anything.
J: There was talk of it, but...
A: I think we talked about it, but the usual...
J: ...the usual banter.
A: We tried to limit our conversations with them to a minimum so we didn't get our hopes up.
B: But enough, enough.
A: We don't want to start flying off the handle here.
B: It would be good for us to get a few more videos together.

PW: With the video, if MTV gets a hold of it they may play it once at midnight on Sunday. Do you think it will help your exposure or would you just like to get it out?
A: That really depends on how much play it gets.
B: Maybe Matador might do a video compilation someday, which I think is one of the better ways to get it out.

PW: Have you ever thought about adding any visual elements to your stage show?
A: Yeah, but we're not really in a position where we can afford even to have a spare lightbulb with us at the moment. As soon as we can get past that hurdle I think then we'll be into it.